Billy Collins, Mary Szybist, Kathleen Raine, Grace PaleyтАж.
тАж.you know where a good place to start might be is the popular тАЬGood PoemsтАЭ anthology curated by Garrison Keillor. ItтАЩs a mix of older and newer poems but plenty of excellent ones from the past 50 years for sure.
I saw тАЬthe lushness of itтАЭ by Mary Szybist the other day, and liked it. Though if someone doesnтАЩt like modern poetry, I wouldnтАЩt expect them to like it!
Well, it managed to convince me there's some value in the non-rhyming format; ending lines in an expression of half a thought does have an evocative effect that basic prose wouldn't.
On the other hand, "Keep on floating there, cradled, unable to burn." Fruit never expires, indeed.
IтАЩve only read one Billy CollinsтАЩ poem - тАЬThe LanyardтАЭ - but I liked it. I think that disqualifies it though. ItтАЩs too тАЬLife in These United StatesтАЭ. I have no opinion on whether heтАЩs a hack, but IтАЩm aware of the charge.
He could be much less of a hack and heтАЩd never escape the label.
I also like the Vaudeville aspect of M*A*S*H and if we ever go back to having broadcast TV, and I have a working TV which I donтАЩt currently - I could see watching it with my supper. TV trad style. Or after the ten oтАЩclock news.
Thank you, and everyone, for the many suggestions, will explore.
The funny thing is, it was Garrison Keillor's NRP poetry feature that did the most work turning me against modern poetry. There was this "poem for the day" thing he did, and I often caught it during commute. And - every time it left me with this sense, like, I was listening to crappy pompous prose read out loud. There was neither rhyme nor rhythm to any of these, and it felt like a bunch of words strung together to create some pretense of deep meaning, but there was really none. I was, like, I want Dr. Seuss back! Green Eggs and Ham to spare the misery.
The term "modern poetry" usually refers to poetry from the early 20th century, represented by poets such as T.S. Eliot, Ezra Pound, Wallace Stevens, William Carlos Williams, etc.
Sorry, none of these. For example, Ms. Bishop writes:
"Although it is a cold evening,
down by one of the fishhouses
an old man sits netting,
his net, in the gloaming almost invisible,
a dark purple-brown,
and his shuttle worn and polished.
The air smells so strong of codfish
it makes oneтАЩs nose run and oneтАЩs eyes water.[...]"
And this is what I want to do with it:
"Although it is a cold evening,
down by a fishhouse
an old man sits, a-netting,
his net, a dark purple-brown.
The air smells so strong of codfish
it makes oneтАЩs nose run and eyes water.[...]".
And Andrea Cohen's piece is a wonderful short story, excellent prose, really:
"IтАЩm tired of meaning, says the tortoise to the hare, who agrees. The lions and crows donтАЩt disagree, and the snake chimes in: It would be better if we didnтАЩt have to moonlight as morality lessons.
Exactly, says the chicken. IтАЩd like to let loose once in a while, IтАЩd like to stretch my wings, she says.
Yes, says the fox. You should get out of your pen more, says the fox. You should let me help, says the fox, opening the latch to the evening.
It was a fine evening and a fine conclusion they were coming to, thought the fox, helping the chicken out of тАКher feathers."
Fantastic! But why it's called a "poem" eludes yours truly.
But - good prose doesnтАЩt good poetry make. These two things are supposed to be different. Maybe i have an old-fashioned view of poetry, I expect at least one of the two: rhyme or rhythm.
I have to say, looking at how you have it written out without the line breaks, it doesn't really look like good prose. Good prose style doesn't put, "says the fox" three times in a row like that. Any prose editor would change that. I think something about the line breaks turns that un-stylish, bad prose repetition of "says the fox, says the fox, says the fox" into something very different. Rhythm is more than just repetition, and it can happen along axes other than syllable count or syllable emphasis position.
Oh au contraire - there would be a big fight with the editor trying to remove this! "Do [this], they said, it will be fun, they said, you'll learn so much, they said" is a common structure, and not only in English, to ironically emphasize a proposition that turned out not at all as expected. It fits perfectly in this case.
Fair. But in that case, doesn't it spoil the punchline? Wasn't there something about it, on a first reading, that kept you from realizing what the fox was doing until the last line?
It's an interesting question. I knew exactly what the fox was doing the moment it appeared, but - this is very much because of the general cultural conditioning: anytime a fox and a hen/chicken appear in a story, one instantly knows what the fox is up to. Never mind the chicken, anytime a fox shows up it's expected to be up to no good, from before Aesop's time.
So the repetition elicits a knowing nod, yep, that's our foxie, doing what it does best, sweet-talking the naive chicken out of the safe hen house. Oh, and to make sure the connection is driven into the reader's mind, a snake makes a cameo.
This is kind of why the story, in prose, is so good: it has an arch, it's full of familiar cultural tropes (not in a derogatory sense) that help the reader instantly connect with it, and yet the telling is fresh.
Hah! This conversation was just happening a couple days ago, and today a sorta ACX-adjacent art/aesthetics nerd published this post on "Poetry's return to form": https://www.ruins.blog/p/poetrys-return-to-form
I'm not putting this forward as an example of "Here is some poetry I say are good and you should like it," but "Hey, this guy says these have been constructed with more 'old-school' goals--including meter and rhyme--and can be usefully analyzed with more of the standard old-school tools than ...what is usually the case for most current poetry!"
This post is awesome, it's like the guy looked into my head and expressed my thoughts about poetry 100X better than I possibly could. And then this:
"The celebrated poetry of our day is stupid, asinine, humiliating, sterile, laborious, ugly, treacherous, posturing, insulting, worthless, destructive, licentious, false and an all around affront to decency and greatness. And when it is not busy being a grotesque monstrosity, it addresses us as naked propaganda, not even having the courtesy of making itself comely."
Any recommendations? I think modern American poetry is atrocious, would love to see counterexamples.
Richard Hugo.
"Approaching the Castle" is good, but it's from 1973. He died in 1982. I think our host's point stands. :)
Paul Edwin Zimmer, if you can find any of his works.
His works *do* tend to mirror the themes of epic poetry. I particularly like "The Flute of Aki Moro"...but good luck finding it.
Not all American, but: Donald Hall, Mary Oliver, Seamus Heaney, Marie Howe, Jane Kenyon, Wendell BerryтАж..just to start.
Billy Collins, Mary Szybist, Kathleen Raine, Grace PaleyтАж.
тАж.you know where a good place to start might be is the popular тАЬGood PoemsтАЭ anthology curated by Garrison Keillor. ItтАЩs a mix of older and newer poems but plenty of excellent ones from the past 50 years for sure.
I saw тАЬthe lushness of itтАЭ by Mary Szybist the other day, and liked it. Though if someone doesnтАЩt like modern poetry, I wouldnтАЩt expect them to like it!
HereтАЩs the poem: https://x.com/marianneLchan/status/1545961318812975105
Nope, don't like it, sorry :-(
The idea, the image, is good, but the flow is so awkward.
Well, it managed to convince me there's some value in the non-rhyming format; ending lines in an expression of half a thought does have an evocative effect that basic prose wouldn't.
On the other hand, "Keep on floating there, cradled, unable to burn." Fruit never expires, indeed.
IтАЩve only read one Billy CollinsтАЩ poem - тАЬThe LanyardтАЭ - but I liked it. I think that disqualifies it though. ItтАЩs too тАЬLife in These United StatesтАЭ. I have no opinion on whether heтАЩs a hack, but IтАЩm aware of the charge.
He could be much less of a hack and heтАЩd never escape the label.
I also like the Vaudeville aspect of M*A*S*H and if we ever go back to having broadcast TV, and I have a working TV which I donтАЩt currently - I could see watching it with my supper. TV trad style. Or after the ten oтАЩclock news.
Thank you, and everyone, for the many suggestions, will explore.
The funny thing is, it was Garrison Keillor's NRP poetry feature that did the most work turning me against modern poetry. There was this "poem for the day" thing he did, and I often caught it during commute. And - every time it left me with this sense, like, I was listening to crappy pompous prose read out loud. There was neither rhyme nor rhythm to any of these, and it felt like a bunch of words strung together to create some pretense of deep meaning, but there was really none. I was, like, I want Dr. Seuss back! Green Eggs and Ham to spare the misery.
The term "modern poetry" usually refers to poetry from the early 20th century, represented by poets such as T.S. Eliot, Ezra Pound, Wallace Stevens, William Carlos Williams, etc.
I can only read her in translation but I really like Wislawa Szymborska. I mentioned Philip Larkin elsewhere.
A. E. Stallings.
Charles Simic?
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/browse?contentId=39907
Elizabeth Bishop?
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/52192/at-the-fishhouses
C.D. Wright?
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/47847/everything-good-between-men-and-women
Here's one by Andrea Cohen that I liked, from this May's edition of Poetry magazine:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/poems/162449/fable-660f96a232f44
Sorry, none of these. For example, Ms. Bishop writes:
"Although it is a cold evening,
down by one of the fishhouses
an old man sits netting,
his net, in the gloaming almost invisible,
a dark purple-brown,
and his shuttle worn and polished.
The air smells so strong of codfish
it makes oneтАЩs nose run and oneтАЩs eyes water.[...]"
And this is what I want to do with it:
"Although it is a cold evening,
down by a fishhouse
an old man sits, a-netting,
his net, a dark purple-brown.
The air smells so strong of codfish
it makes oneтАЩs nose run and eyes water.[...]".
And Andrea Cohen's piece is a wonderful short story, excellent prose, really:
"IтАЩm tired of meaning, says the tortoise to the hare, who agrees. The lions and crows donтАЩt disagree, and the snake chimes in: It would be better if we didnтАЩt have to moonlight as morality lessons.
Exactly, says the chicken. IтАЩd like to let loose once in a while, IтАЩd like to stretch my wings, she says.
Yes, says the fox. You should get out of your pen more, says the fox. You should let me help, says the fox, opening the latch to the evening.
It was a fine evening and a fine conclusion they were coming to, thought the fox, helping the chicken out of тАКher feathers."
Fantastic! But why it's called a "poem" eludes yours truly.
Who cares what it's called? I'm happy for you to call it "fantastic", that's a big improvement over "atrocious".
Yes, you have a point there. :)
But - good prose doesnтАЩt good poetry make. These two things are supposed to be different. Maybe i have an old-fashioned view of poetry, I expect at least one of the two: rhyme or rhythm.
I have to say, looking at how you have it written out without the line breaks, it doesn't really look like good prose. Good prose style doesn't put, "says the fox" three times in a row like that. Any prose editor would change that. I think something about the line breaks turns that un-stylish, bad prose repetition of "says the fox, says the fox, says the fox" into something very different. Rhythm is more than just repetition, and it can happen along axes other than syllable count or syllable emphasis position.
Oh au contraire - there would be a big fight with the editor trying to remove this! "Do [this], they said, it will be fun, they said, you'll learn so much, they said" is a common structure, and not only in English, to ironically emphasize a proposition that turned out not at all as expected. It fits perfectly in this case.
Fair. But in that case, doesn't it spoil the punchline? Wasn't there something about it, on a first reading, that kept you from realizing what the fox was doing until the last line?
It's an interesting question. I knew exactly what the fox was doing the moment it appeared, but - this is very much because of the general cultural conditioning: anytime a fox and a hen/chicken appear in a story, one instantly knows what the fox is up to. Never mind the chicken, anytime a fox shows up it's expected to be up to no good, from before Aesop's time.
So the repetition elicits a knowing nod, yep, that's our foxie, doing what it does best, sweet-talking the naive chicken out of the safe hen house. Oh, and to make sure the connection is driven into the reader's mind, a snake makes a cameo.
This is kind of why the story, in prose, is so good: it has an arch, it's full of familiar cultural tropes (not in a derogatory sense) that help the reader instantly connect with it, and yet the telling is fresh.
Surely there's more to it than that?
IтАж donтАЩt know? Does there need to be? The best stories are timeless, retold over and over in every which way. This is a great example.
Ted Kooser and Richard Wilbur.
Hah! This conversation was just happening a couple days ago, and today a sorta ACX-adjacent art/aesthetics nerd published this post on "Poetry's return to form": https://www.ruins.blog/p/poetrys-return-to-form
I'm not putting this forward as an example of "Here is some poetry I say are good and you should like it," but "Hey, this guy says these have been constructed with more 'old-school' goals--including meter and rhyme--and can be usefully analyzed with more of the standard old-school tools than ...what is usually the case for most current poetry!"
This post is awesome, it's like the guy looked into my head and expressed my thoughts about poetry 100X better than I possibly could. And then this:
"The celebrated poetry of our day is stupid, asinine, humiliating, sterile, laborious, ugly, treacherous, posturing, insulting, worthless, destructive, licentious, false and an all around affront to decency and greatness. And when it is not busy being a grotesque monstrosity, it addresses us as naked propaganda, not even having the courtesy of making itself comely."