Sherrilyn Ifill is a Civil Rights legal icon and leader. She is the Vernon E. Jordan, Jr., Esq. Endowed Chair in Civil Rights at Howard University, a writer, law professor, and the former president and director-counsel of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund.
She talks to Jen Rubin and The Contrarian about why she chose to celebrate, focus, and reflect upon last Monday as Dr. Martin Luther King, rather than as the inauguration of a man who “came out like a bear.” She goes on to talk about—with her characteristic lucidity and passion—about the 14th amendment.
OMG, I love and revere Sherrilyn Ifill so much--her mind, her courage, her compassion, her capacity to explain things in ways anyone can understand. Thank you for this splendid interview, and everything else you are doing!!!!
Insightful, thoughtful, informative! Ms. Ifill is brilliant and inspiring. Her reminder the policies of trump et al are not abstract but rather do real damage to people, families, children etc. should be stressed over and over. Tyranny benefits only tyrants. I especially appreciate her debunking the notion democrats lost the middle class; rather trump conned them. Ms. Ifill and Jen give me hope.
This is great. So helpful to understand. The anti-DEI EO is pernicious, and also a bit difficult to fully wrap one's mind around (which of course is part of the point). Professor Ifill helps me understand.
So we are on the cusp of a great rollback in civil rights.
There is legal recourse, but I'm not a participant in that. As a citizen, what are my best concrete actions? How do I help protect those in the line of fire? (I'm not in the government, or a part of any organization with any sort of influence) How and to whom do I "tell the human story"? What are the best things to do to put the administration on defense (because they are "not very good at defending themselves")?
a lovely guest! I'd like to sit through one of her courses just to hear her balanced perspective!
With great respect to Ms. Ifill, I'd like to say a word on behalf of bears, and suggest they deserve better than comparison to Mr. Trump...
When I heard that metaphor I thought the same.
What a great interview! Thanks again, Jen Rubin, for another insightful, probing conversation with Sherrilyn Ifill, who IMO belongs on the Supreme Court. Ms Ifill made a very important point about the assumptions made on the right about DEI; specifically, that any white person who gets hired got there on the strength of their merit, but women and POC only got jobs because of some sinister program to tip the scales.
Much of the whining we hear from MAGA world men has to do with their fear of competing. The truth is they're the ones who got used to mediocre performance in high school and college knowing that somebody would be there to pull the strings on their behalf. Having to actually put in the work and still being outcompeted by a woman or POC is their worst fear.
The whole attack on DEI, and CRT before it, and affirmative action before that, follows the same script. Only the scapegoat changes. Thank you, Sherrilyn Ifill for clearly stating that case!
These 2 interviews released this morning are interesting for theoretical background but do not address the questions of what is actually being done by leadership in the Senate and House to meet the moment. Who is doing what to stop the power grab?? What is Schumer doing, what is Jeffries doing, to coalesce a meaningful response to firing the inspectors general?
I found Ifl's interview exceptionally interesting and informative. Both the conceptual depth and immediately practical aspects were helpful. Just knowing a bit more about the available legal recourse helps me fight off despondency. And, although I'm no legal eagle, I am a citizen. I don't have a large audience, but I have neighbors (am a Florida resident) and extended family who might re-think some of their gullible acceptance of the lies about DEI. Most won't. But, listening to this interview gave me some conversational pointers for those who might.
I'm very disappointed in Democratic Senate and House leaders. But I don't think their inaction is on Ifl. I'm glad she's working where it seems (to her) she can make the most difference.
Please use your wonderful Contrarian contributors to push for a ‘Shadow Cabinet’. We need a unified voice at the national level that can claim the legitimacy of The Opposition.
Jen is on fire!
If Jen Rubin had taken over the Washington Post, she might have saved it from itself.
Yes. I would prefer to read the interview. I am a subscriber
How can I read the commentary? I prefer not to listen.
I can’t find the transcript on iPad. I do not have time to listen to the video
I see “transcript” right under JEN RUBIN and the date. I’m going to try that since someone pointed out to me earlier that there’s a transcript. I clicked on the video rather than LIKE, if that helps.
I didn't see the word transcript anywhere. Android phone. What am I missing?
I have an iphone. Also no transcript option.
Aha! I had to click on “watch video now” before the transcript option appeared.
I believe Ifill's lawyerly view of the EOs is one of the great places from which to launch resistance - the executive has will nilly cast itself as defending societally corrupt & destructive positions. I believe the majority of us would prefer to embrace constructive values and support the defense of those values in legal and political action.
What is needed is a voice, a narrative, that captures these values in fierce, simple, relatable language - and a platform that enables and encourages coalescence around them. Trump's agenda can only be hatched by shady conspirators - there are others that thrive in light, transparency and fresh air.
Ms. Ifill is a treasure, more of her please.
Excellent session. Ms. Ifill's insightful and clear points and explanations are the strength that we need right now to converse with others and to understand the situation. It was an amazing interview.
Costco BOD beat back a shareholder who wanted them to get rid of their DEI policies.
Still hoping for transcripts. Many of us are readers, not podcasters.
Wow...this was an amazing interview. So appreciative for Jen Rubin making all this happen.
Thank you Sherrilyn Ifill for sharing. I loved how you gave your class over to your students to think through the 14th amendment class. All of it was so useful. Reading to see that the level of lawyering is worse than the last time. I love thinking of them as the defendants. And taking the time to write this, I just have to say, Sherrilyn, what an extraordinary family the Ifill family is. I miss your first cousin so much. You are amazing!!!
Love this, Jen - and so glad to be supporting you here! May I make a non-content recommendation as a guy who spent his career using videos to teach and collaborate? Put some books under your laptop so the camera is looking straight across at you, or even slightly down. Right now, we’re looking up at you and that isn’t really the best.
Thank you for that wonderful, informative interview!
Fabulous interview and so important - lots of information here...thank you so much!
As Jen was talking about the meritocracy and if the cabinet heads that trump has put in place would still be there if it was really about merit, I thought that applied to trump a thousand times over. He was never, ever qualified to be any kind of leader, never mind the leader of the free world.
Thank you for this extremely important and informative interview!!
Great interview. Sherrilyn Ifill was spectacular. Clear but even more than clear, able to remind us of the very troubling history of our Supreme Court that is now pushing the 2025 agenda. And insisting that we see the human cost of this insistence on White Supremacy, lists of blacks, browns and women and the assumption that none were hired by merit. More stark was her reminder that this is a swipe at the entire black middle class and bringing a suit against the government does feed children or pay a mortgage. Well done. Thank you. The only small bone I have to pick with with Jen Rubin, for whom I am so grateful, because she has started the Contrarian. She said that DEI was accepted by many other Republican Presidents starting with Reagan and I would beg to differ. Reagon undid the The Fairness Doctrine because Rupert Murdoch had made significant donations to his campaign. That was a start of this slide. The Republican pushback at LBJ and Jimmy Carter, the beginning of the undoing because with the demise of the Fairness Doctrine, the media was splintered into right and everybody else. With the Fairness Doctrine in place, several points of view had to be present in every newscast. With it gone, we got Fox and the ability to tell lies without reflection or consequence. That set up was begun in 1980 and before that, when Nixon pandered to the South who were unhappy with the loss of segregation. This has been a long, downward journey we have been on. We are going to have to fight like hell and be led by women like Sherrilyn Ifill and Jen Rubin, who had the courage to exit a paper owned by Jeff Bezos who was fear-caving to Maga.
This interview was so illuminating. That 1.6% of government contracts are awarded to black-owned businesses and 3% to women-owned businesses are astoundingly low statistics. I imagine most MAGA adherents would guess the percentages are much higher. It’s like all the “immigrant crime” that I am wondering about as it’s obviously more rare than the crime committed by citizens. That false victimization inflames the uninformed citizens and they firmly believe Trump is righteously correcting awful things the “Democrats” have allowed. Please get these hard facts out. The truth is what people need to hear and it’s just awful that we now have to pay subscriptions for what used to be free (thinking of Walter Cronkite, et al). Thank you for this wonderful interview, and I so appreciate the truth, told intelligently, without resorting to the shameful name calling I see from the current occupant of the presidency and his sycophants.
Walter Cronkite's news show was thirty minutes long. I don't intend to be critical but I've been thinking about complaints like yours. I used to feel the same. But just think about this. Do you have Internet access? Is it free? Do you subscribe to a newspaper? Is it free? Magazines? Are they free? Cable television? Free? Assets like The Contrarian are not cost-free - either to produce or to consume. We must get accustomed to this new world. The days of NBC, CBS and ABC are long gone.
I subscribed to the Contrarian, and yes, I pay for internet but the only streaming service I get is amazon prime. For now, I am paying for Apple News monthly. I let the local newspaper subscription expire recently. I haven’t watched any cable news programs in 10 years due to the cost of cable tv. Many people are worse off financially than I (retired nurse) and only get what is free on their phones. We have become an uninformed country and this is a huge problem.
I understand what you're saying - that an uninformed country is a huge problem. I agree but I've got to point out that there are numerous sources of accurate news and many of them are free of charge. ProPublica for example. I think the problem is more than one of money. Rather, it's the degree to which people simply find it easy to look at (and believe) whatever stuff they see on their phones. If someone wants to know the truth, it's out there for those who search.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for the conversation with Sherrilyn Ifill....she is wonderful - her insight, her intelligence, her knowledge of the law was renewing and refreshing compared to the dark lies of Trump and his cronies. They really could care less about the struggles of the middle class.
What a remarkable woman....thanks for having her on your broadcast!!
She had made it all so much more apparent.
Transcript, please, for all interviews.
Ms. Ifill is totally correct in her assessment of the 6 reTHUG appointees to SCROTUS-CORRUPTUS. They are owned by the new president MuskratPutinBozosSuckerberg.
As a matter of record, I spent 50 years selling cleaning supplies to businesses and governments. I found selling to the Federal Government took more time for less profit than any other entity. I saw many minority contracts taken that you could not profit from. The money made selling the Federal Government is made by big businesses and politicians, not minority programs or small businesses.
Oh, the Supreme Court might chime in, oh yes, they just might,
To give the 14th Amendment a brand-new spotlight.
A “different interpretation” could soon take the stage,
A twist in the law, a new turning page.
@@
Now birthright citizenship—oh, what a debate!
Most folks, they say, might not find it so great.
The polls could ignite a campaign to unfold,
If Trump in the courts sees his efforts turn cold.
@@
For laws, my dear friends, have been steady and stable,
Yet few Supreme rulings have set them in cable.
So perhaps this high court, with its robes and its books,
Might glance at the law with more curious looks.
@@
But here comes the twist, oh, the clever Trump plan,
He’s playing the long game, the political man.
If the courts say “No!” and his efforts don’t fly,
He’ll turn to elections, with a gleam in his eye.
@@
Right before midterms, oh, what a display!
The issue of birthright could carry the day.
So whether he wins or whether he loses,
The game of politics, he deftly chooses.
@@
Oh, the Court and elections, the law and the fight,
What a tale to be told, in the day or the night.
For the story keeps spinning, the stage ever bright,
In the world of great battles of wrong versus right!
Outstanding! Sherrilyn Ifill and Jen Rubin keep me hopeful!
This conversation on DEI has completely excluded Indigenous People, Asian People, Hispanic People and Jewish People. Disgraceful.
Can we build a fire big enough for Stephen Miller's feet?
Jen Rubin keep up the good work of keeping us informed. Fantastic interview and discuss with Dr. Ifill. I have a much clearer understanding of what is happening with this EO, why, and the importance of voicing opposition to these policies with our government representatives.
Another excellent interview! So well spoken and informative. Trump attracts shady people like the Proud Boys and others. It’s clear that he stands for criminals and he’s shown this by his actions. Pardoning the J6er’s and the 23 who violated the FACE act at a D.C. clinic is all I need to know about his character. He would rather assist criminals rather than those who have truly been discriminated against. There’s plenty of sexism and racism in the Trump presidency and within his cabinet choices. Sherrilyn Ifill laid it out very clearly.
Very informative and well worth the listen.
Great interview! My Grandfather and Father owned an electrical construction (Union) that was impacted by the grant cutting in the early 1980s. It was tough, so I understand the impact on families with these policies.
This kind of discourse, and stories of the human side to the trouncing of democratic values, need to be in front of the majority of Americans. The majority do not embrace the firehose of disinformation. They-we-need the truth. Synder’s People’s Cabinet. The voices of the resistance must be heard more widely. It begins and ends with good information.
Incredibly wonderful and illuminating interview!
Thank you Sherrilyn Ifill and Jen Rubin for this educational and inspiring conversation! Sherrilyn, you are indeed a brilliant Contrarian, with a powerful voice and beautiful determination. God Bless you! your work gives me hope for the future.
VERY helpful perspective from Ifill. Sooo glad I watched it.
So with respect to the citizenship provision of the 14th Amendment, I find particular irony in the administration claim that undocumented persons are not subject to the jurisdiction of the US while rounding up and deporting thousands of such people. That seems like a pretty direct assertion of jurisdiction.
Thank you so much for featuring one of our greatest legal warriors. Ifill is one of my dream SCOTUS nominees. So grateful we have voices like this fighting for true democracy.
excellent
The GOP has been captured by fraudsters & power by any means authoritarians. The projection & propaganda never stops.
Bothsiderism reigns with MSM.
Trump, Musk & MAGA, in their vision of gangster government & kleptocracy, believe that democracy is for sale & that they've bought control of the US government...that Trump, Musk & their MAGA oligarchs can act with impunity. Threats of retribution & prosecution for those who would uphold the rule of law are intended to silence opposition & compel obedience in advance.
The battles to rescue democracy & the rule of law will require resilient resistance...
I am so happy with my subscription to the Contrarian where I can get measured and informative commentary and reasoned opinions and advice from so many right-minded people. Thank you to Jennifer Rubin for taking the courageous step to develop such a platform and thanks to Sharilynn Ifill for her long years of good, hard service. I look forward to reading the Contrarian every day!
Thanks so much for this amazing talk. I would love it if people who are targeted and harmed by the DEI EO could have their stories told if they were willing to do so. Sherrilyn Ifill made everything she spoke of so viscerally real to me. I hope she does come back.
I love being part of the Contrarian community.
Thank you soooooo much for having this chat with one of my favorites--Sherrilyn Ifill! Love her so much and her making it real and telling us how Trump is hurting middle class black people. Starting my $100 a month to the NAACP tonight and Negro College fund as well.
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for showing the interview of Sherrilyn Ifill. It was really an eye opener for me in that she really helped me to understand how the labeling of DEI employees can be used by the Trump administration to eliminate minorities from the government and private workplaces. I saw in our local community blog that someone mentioned that Target, Lowe’s and Walmart are either eliminating or putting aside their DEI policies. I do not know if that is true, so if anyone can comment on that. I’d appreciate it. May or may not be true. Thank you again Jen and Norm for helping us to understand fully what we are facing.
E.I., E.O. what an absolute dippy show Trump's interpretation is. He creates illogical arguments out of thin air and expects his drones to believe it. Not so for us. Thanks so much to Jen and Sherrilyn Ifill for clarification of this E.O.
why won't this play?
Excellent discussion ! I hope inertia and incompetence will at least partially thwart the Trump agenda.
From today's New York Times: Trump Executive Order Prompts National Gallery to End Diversity Programs (https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/24/arts/design/national-gallery-diversity-equity-inclusion.html?smid=url-share). This is just the tip of the iceberg. The National Gallery gets "...nearly 80% of its operating budget from the federal government." Trump and his thugs will use their leverage to go after all sorts of arts institutions. We must make our feelings known.
Sherilyn, you astutely pointed out the synchronicity of Jan. 20th being Dr. MLK Jr. day. I choose to heed that great man’s instructions to resist at any level each person is able to. That’s how I will proceed. Many people need positive words and calm voices of truth. You and Jen Rubin do just that! Thank you to both of you!
What an outstanding individual Sherrilyn Ifill is!! We all need to remember the human hurt that tRump's exclusionary policies will cause! I don't consider myself a vengeful person, but I sincerely hope that karma exists!
Thank you! I hope you know how much your work is appreciated and necessary. I know you do!
I love Sherrilyn! I also have subscribed to her newsletter. She has a very thoughtful, reflective, historical understanding of issues. Thank you for featuring her!
The West and its greed and their view of democracy is polluted with oligarchs . We are all so unhappy here and there is no single democratic DNC voice -they don't even have a new head of DNC . Quite frankly, if the dems don't have a convention in early 2026 to choose their president and establish a strong voice and be unforgiving in pushing back this asshole the USA and part of the world is irrevocably damaged. It's so bad that they need three years with an angry strong unforgiving leader who can make Trump look like the asshole he is. If the dems fight amongst themselves and keep tucking their tails between their legs our next president will be Vance solidifying the project 2025. Currently, the Democratic Party has no leadership and is lost even though 50% of people voted 🗳️ for them . They are lost without a strong clear voice to respond to trumps idiocy! The only ones here trying to tell people what is the truth are respected journalists who are quitting their jobs at nytimes and wash post etc giving us access to their writing in Substack until Trump finds a way to shut it down . It's a mess and the longer we wait the more deadly this becomes!
Olwen Dowling
What a brilliant mind with a very skilled ability to articulate her thoughts.
Thank you, Jen and Sherrilyn, for this interview. I believe that white nationalism is the biggest single factor in Trump's success. Evangelical or not, it doesn't matter. Same thing. Are there any funds to which one might contribute to help pay legal fees for Americans who are under direct attack by Trump and his minions?
Jen, thank you so much for having Sherrilyn on. She is so articulate and I learn a lot by hearing her explain what’s happening. And as always, I do miss her sister Gwen. Keep up your great work on the Contrarian.
I sincerely appreciate you, and your guest, Ms. Ifill. However, I am still stressed out. What actions can we individuals take to protect our country, which seems to be in severe jeopardy right now, headed in a dark and terrible direction.
Love Sherillyn Ifill so much. Her voice of love to hear more from!
Thank you very much for this.
*Jen—going forward, will you be offering these Contrarian conversations as a podcast feed? Hope so!
Am I wrong or does DEI also include other minorities other than blacks and women?
Please compare the audio-visual quality of each speaker… rooting for The Contrarian! 🥸
Former demographer here, one thing not mentioned here is that most Federal positions require a college degree or advanced degree. College enrollment statistics show that men are not going to college at the same rates as women. Based on educational attainment, one would expect more women employed in high level positions than men. Yet that hasn’t happened.
Brilliant conversation. Weighty issues. Scary at times. Yet listening to Sherrilyn i feel hope.
With respect Ms. Ifill I don't understand why you and Jen are not talking about what tRump is trying to do in Indian Country. The birthright EO explicitly states that the tRump administration does not view Native Americans as American citizens and tRump actually used the phrase "Manifest Destiny" last week when talking about "expanding Americas borders."
You are missing the mark in just how much damage this administration is going to do.
You also need to look at what tRump is planning in Indian country. You do not talk about that tRumps EO on Birthright citizenship explicitly states that Native Americans are not Citizens and tRump even used the phrase "Manifest Destiny" last week.
Dear God.
Thank you Dr. Ifill. This was very information. I am curious about the effect of the 14th Amendment EO will have on indigenous people since I know that their citizenship status has not always assured in the course of US history.
How can a safety net be created for those who lose Gov't contracts and must wait years for the litigation to provide any positive result? The Trump agenda is therefore successful without a safety net for these victims of his 1960's efforts
This is a key. Resistance requires a balance of sacrifice and personal/family security that cannot arise simply from piecemeal exhortations to resist.
How do they distinguish a DEI hire from a minority person who has the pertinent credentials?
Trump's recinding of Lyndon Johnson's 1965 non-descrimination in federal hiring answers that question, imo.