In this special episode, I got a chance to chat with Irish Poet Jessica Traynor about her sequence of witch poems from her 2018 collection The Quick.
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Jessica: So today I'm going to be talking a little bit about Witches, which is a sequence in my second collection, The Quick, which was published by Daedalus Press in 2018. And these are a sequence of poems that came together over the course of a couple of years. I never sat down. to write this sequence. It was one that just kind of started to coagulate, I think is probably the best word, as my writing around the collection went on.
And when I was writing this collection, I was thinking a lot about a lot of the themes that do crop up in my work a lot, which is the uncanny and the supernatural, but also women and women's lives and how women relate to each other, and particularly women. in Irish society, and the multi generational relationships that are there, the sometimes strange and damaging and gleefully wonderful dynamics that are explored or that exist in my own [00:01:00] generation, but also I've always been interested in thinking about my mother's generation.
She comes from a very big family with a lot of very strong willed women in it and I, as an only child, you know, coming from this very big family. I would spend a lot of time when I was growing up watching these women interact. And these were women who would have been born between the 1940s and the 1950s.
So they grew up in an Ireland incredibly different from the Ireland that I had the privilege to be born into in the 1980s. And they had to fight for everything. And a lot of these struggles were outward struggles. And some of them were inward struggles. And they were the struggles of women within a patriarchal society, where there are a lot of power plays that go on behind the scenes.
And I found myself utterly fascinated by the way that these women managed to kind of carve out a space for themselves. And they would have been women who would not necessarily have had the chance to go to third level [00:02:00] education. They would have, the ambition would have been for them to marry well and have a good stable life, which meant that most of them were married in their early twenties, which was the norm at the time.
But also you know, like many people who settle into relationships in their early twenties, it may not have been the best choice for them ultimately. And you know, often then those marriages became very very fraught as time went on, and as children came into the mix and I think of them in a sense as a microcosm for a lot of the societal changes that were happening in Ireland.
And I'm just going to start my reading from the sequence with the second poem, which is very much inspired by the tensions that I might have witnessed between these women and the world that surrounded them. The witches manifest as a fry of eels. I grew up in a bed of electric eels who twist in their skirts, writhing to escape.[00:03:00]
Sometimes static would sizzle through their skin, and if you caught their eye, you'd see the spark that lived there. Each married a shadow, always in search of a body, And my eels cried crackling tears, their voltage soaring, Until the time came, they'd pin you with a stare, Pull you close, fry the heart in your chest.
And one of the dynamics I suppose I witnessed And lived through was the divorce referendum of 1990, which is my first kind of political memory. I would have been, you know, six at the time. And so I wasn't entirely aware of what was going on, but I knew there was debate happening in society and people talking about what it meant.
You know, this kind of sense of what will it mean for Irish society if this goes through. And I remember. The argument for was, you know, this is for extreme cases. The good women of [00:04:00] Ireland love their husbands and they're not going to and they're not going to break up the family farm and all of these things that were very much at the time.
And, you know, the argument against was, you know, every single woman in Ireland is going to leave their husbands. If this goes through, society will break down. There'll be chaos. carnage in the streets. And then the referendum passed and, and every one of my aunts and my mother left their husbands
pretty much.
Okay.
And informed, and that and the kind of the dynamic that I would have witnessed within those marriages with a little bit of the gothic thrown in informed this next poem, which is called the witch's love song to her ex. You're a punch bag, a suit stuffed with duck down, a helium balloon in a furnace, but still you trip about forgetting your vitamins.
A pint is not a meal. And between your prat
falls, lost jobs, unpaid loans, there are those tar pits [00:05:00] we all tiptoe around. The abandoned wives, the children no one mentions because tar sticks and we don't like the look of your shoes. You're a laugh riot, an ice cube. On a stove, an unattended chip pan spitting your gold into our faces and oh how it burns our eyes.
But we hide it in the tiny pockets of silence that line our clothes, that keep us afloat in dark water when we drag you yet again towards the shore. And though your warehouse is bare, we are out here waiting, we fixers of men, to greet each arsehole with a toothy kiss, to pull the stones from your pockets, replace them with cups of tea that scald your balls as they spill, and to stop your mouth with slices of cake as we wrap a hundred scarves around your neck, and wind, and wind, until you find you're choking.
And isn't it only what's best for you? And doesn't it serve you right?
Ben: That one is amazing to me because I, I think you combine like this incredibly [00:06:00] strong willed kind of sense of malice with like a really rural Ireland. Like I, I, it's the cups of tea, it's the, the chip pan spitting, you know, it's something that I don't generally associate with such a heavy.
Gothic, malicious presence, but you combine the two of them so very, very well. I mean, I think
Jessica: I, I, I really like, and of course, this is only one side of, of my experience growing up, but like, I have always been interested in how, in how, you know, paradynamics and those atmospheres can just weave their way in until to me, you know, a chip pan is that most gothic of things, because you just don't see them anymore.
Everyone in my generation has a story about how they nearly set their house on fire with one, you know, so they always, to me, they kind of, they were something that was present in every kitchen that I, that I was in when I grew up. And, but also there were these. I should have some incredible danger, you know, where everybody had some ship and [00:07:00] related injury but alongside, I suppose, the, the look at that kind of intergenerational and dynamic between the women.
And I'm also looking a little bit. at my own family and growing up and, and those little moments of strangeness in childhood and those kind of moments of identity formation that that really stick with you and, and have this kind of talismanic power. And I'm going to read just two short ones that try to capture that atmosphere of, of my own kind of identity developing alongside the, these other women who were.
So four must have been my life and the first one is called Scrying. In our old bathroom, the tall mirror balanced on the sink behind chrome tap. One day I looked up as it fell in slow motion and I stopped it with trembling arms, shrieked as its weight pressed [00:08:00] down, until my father heard and came to save me from the danger of my own small face.
And this next short one is called the want. My mother wrote a spell for what she wanted, put it in a vase on a kitchen shelf to wait there till her wish came true. Wanting to know what a woman might need. I climbed up to read it, but couldn't reach when I'd dream our home. The vase is there still. So those poems, I suppose are, are about the kind of the mysteriousness of.
Adult life. And also this sense of kind of, as you become an adult, the, the small dangers that creep in and the first one was literally about an incident where a mirror fell on my head in our bathroom.
Ben: So this actually happened?
Jessica: That just happened. That just happened. We had this massive mirror that was supposed to [00:09:00] be attached to the wall, but it just didn't, you know, I think like a lot of people growing up, there was a lot of stuff that just wasn't.
Done around
100 percent correctly. And then, yeah, it inevitably caused chaos at some point.
Yeah. Yeah. So so no, there are a series of poems that are very, that are very meaningful to me because they gave me the opportunity, I suppose, to try and contrast that kind of innocent. Very open presence of the child and my own memories, the things that stuck in my head for the oddest reasons.
And you think, okay, well, if we can't afford 29 sessions of psychoanalysis, I may as well try to write because they are little things that become kind of talismanic to you. And, and, and, and it was very interesting for me to kind of contrast them with the bigger family and those. gender dynamics, I suppose.
And to see where they fit into the puzzle. But to go back to what I said at the beginning, it was really only as I started to put the collection [00:10:00] together that I realized that all of these poems were in conversation with one another. And, and then it was a lovely thing to be able to put them together and see, see how they did speak to each other.
And what kind of little narrative arc was there. And there is one curse poem that I know I've read for your podcast before that I really love reading and I enjoy reading because one of the things I was thinking about, about the idea of witchcraft and womanhood, and I think there's a lot of kind of You know, slightly kind of woo woo nonsense about women as these essential magical beings, which I have quite, don't have a huge amount of patience with that because I kind of feel like that's another mysterious box that we're putting women into, which is not necessarily helpful.
But I do think there's something very interesting with dynamics in society, where it's always the people who are the most oppressed in each situation, who are the ones who curse. So [00:11:00] if you go back over the, the Irish tradition of the curse poem, which is a really longstanding tradition and also the Irish tradition of the curse, and there's fantastic articles about it online that you can read about the history of it.
And if you go into kind of anthropological areas and look at other societies and the traditions of cursing it, it is the resort of those who have no actual power. Like the idea of, you know, obviously the, the women in my, my family, I'm not saying they were the most oppressed people in the world, but they were the most oppressed people.
They had the fewest freedoms of the particular social circle that they were in. You know, they couldn't work after marriage. The marriage ban was in, you know, they couldn't buy anything without a husband co signing, you know, there were all of these things that it's very easy to forget that they, that they lived through.
But, you know, it started me thinking, well, what do you do if you have no outlet for your anger? You know, if you, if you really don't have any recourse, [00:12:00] you curse, you know, you, you sell the anger from yourself in that way. And, and I think that that's something that's kind of healthy. Sometimes you just have to scream therapy, just scream it out into the universe.
Absolutely. But also, it's something that still has a lot of power in our society, and often I read this poem, and my, my curse poem that I wrote, kind of in the voices of gathered generations of women, you know, no particular aunties or anything like that. But, you know, the kind of, I, I felt like I was writing the curse with these women behind me, you know, sure.
It
was a collective curse. Yeah.
There was a kind of a collective thing going on there. And I wrote it at a time in my life where something terrible had happened to me and there was nothing I could do about it. And I'm the kind of person who always likes to try and think about things from both sides and say, well, you know, what you need to learn from this is that you should have done this.
And that's how I. Hope with bad situations, but I just had [00:13:00] a really bad thing happen where it was just crap. And I couldn't do anything about it. I couldn't even take a lesson from it. It was just too, you know, a kind of a collision course situation that I couldn't get out of. And I just had to live with it.
And I thought, okay, I've actually been kind of wronged here for the first time in my life. I'm like, no, I, I, you know, just a bad person did a bad thing. So I was like, yeah, right. And I was actually pregnant with my first daughter. when I was writing it. And I kind of felt about, thought about the idea of, okay, of these generations of women behind me who had loads of those experiences in their life.
I mean, I'm very privileged. I think, you know, bad things happen to people, but I don't have to deal with even a quarter of the stuff that they had to, they had to deal with in their lives, kind of growing up in the, in the, from the mid 20th century in Ireland until now. And they're all, thankfully, most of my answers.
still alive. But I kind of thought, well, what would it be like to write something this dark and angry with the idea of these women behind me? And then my daughter in my, in my room at the [00:14:00] same time, like, how does that affect the whole thing? And And I just started thinking about like, well, what is a curse, you know, and it's kind of something that attacks a person in their weakest point.
And I thought about the particular person who'd annoyed me and, and what they would hate, the kind of things they would hate to happen to them. And I thought, okay, I'm going to write this on paper and I'm really going to mean it. Because it's not going to change anything. Like it's not actually going to hurt this person.
You know, I mean, if I actually, I, you know, I wouldn't really want any of these things to happen. Now, maybe a little, but not really. Well, this is, this is probably good. This is probably, this is probably a form of weird mindfulness now that I'm inhabiting. But interestingly, Ben, when I read it at readings, I will often get people coming out to me afterwards, especially women of a certain age, just going, Oh, be careful, be careful.
It's kind of the transformative power of negativity and I mean, I'm kind of thinking of it in a way of like, this is just me venting my anger and [00:15:00] it's not going to hurt anybody. It's still a sense and it happens to me quite frequently where people will say to me, just be careful because it could come back and it's something that people say,
you know
, it's kind of Catholic, but it's also kind of mystical. And I love that. I think that the Irish life is still so threaded through with that kind of mixture of deep Catholicism and mysticism. And the two things do lend themselves beautifully to each other. But I suppose now I've talked about it for half an hour.
I better read the curse, the witches, hex and enemy. May the jelly in your eyes be eaten by eels. May your guts grow fins and escape out of your arse. May the springs of your bed slice your back like rusted knives. May boils fester your balls. May sleep desert you. May you not have one second of ease. May the closing of an eyelid be a scalpel to your retina.
May your enemies shit on your grave till it becomes a [00:16:00] blackened monument. This we wish on you with the power of our mothers, our grandmothers, all our sainted aunts. God help you. And with the unformed id of our gestating daughters, whose vision is nightmare, whose magic is cellular, whose name is splinter, shank, scrawl.
Ben: There is a wonderful, I'm struck a couple of times in. That particular sequence that you've written in the quick of, of the way you've chosen to write the poems. So the, the first one, the, which is manifest in a fry of eels that reminded me almost of an eel moving the way that you've. Constructed the poem itself.
It's like a wriggling mass of something. And then in this particular poem, it's the two columns. And then the final stanza, which I'm kind of fascinated about. It gives it such a kind of a repetition and a strength or [00:17:00] a kind of almost a tattoo of. Of cursing where it just repeats again and again, and it really adds to that sense of like, I really don't like you as a person.
Jessica: And I wish these things on you. I think it's fascinating. Yeah.
I, you know, one of the things that I like doing is, is, is trying to inject some kind of play. You know, I, I feel like for me darkness and humor often go hand in hand and, and And I kind of like the idea of, of the, the initial litany of curses being this very formal and kind of two columns that feel like they're part of a tradition and, and then the kind of rush in the final, in the final stanza with this kind of, you know, army of unseen women.
Ben: I found that when I was reading them, the witches are sometimes very close to you. The witches are sometimes. You and then the witches are also sometimes this [00:18:00] massive force that just exists. So you, you kind of flow through all these different definitions for which one of the things I thought was.
most interesting was the fact that you never condemn them for the fact that they're witches. It's quite common to see them as evil or something else, but a lot of cases, the witches in your poems are vindicated or justified and they carry a lot of dignity. I thought that was so interesting.
Jessica: I was very interested in, again, I shy away from the idea of, I shy away from the idea of presenting witches as simply vilified women who are actually incredibly noble because I actually think that kind of does women as complex human beings a disservice.
So, yeah, I mean, sometimes the witches are with me in this book and sometimes they're not my friends, you know, sometimes they're working against me because I think, you know, for me, it. The reason that [00:19:00] patriarchy as a system is so complex and so difficult to unravel, it's because it makes people complicit in some ways.
And actually for me, the definition of a witch is a woman whose power is turned inwards. So it's damaging to her. You know, it's damaging to her and it's damaging to people around her. Now it is still a power and it can be wielded in certain situations and used to make things better, but it's a kind of, it's something that devours, you know, and, and it's a, it's a symptom.
I feel like it's a symptom of disempowerment. And I really wanted to explore that. Like, I love these, I love these characters in these poems and I'm on their side. But they are also volatile. And that kind of volatility is created by the situation in which they find themselves, you know, as, as generations of very intelligent women who, who never got to really, some of them did, you know, later in life, went back and focused on career and, and, you know, and, and had very fulfilling.
Have [00:20:00] very fulfilling lives, but there was a time when I was growing up where that just didn't seem to be on the table for for any of them, you know, and and I think that that I think the damage of that needs to be acknowledged alongside the kind of the glee of the subversion. Subversion is always something that lends itself well to glee, I think, to this kind of wicked enjoyment.
But the fact that it's even wicked and the fact that it's subversion is a problem, you know, it's symptomatic of a problem in society and that that just shouldn't be a problem. So yeah, I would prefer, I would prefer if none of us were witches.
But for now, you'll write poems about witches while it's necessary.
I will. Exactly. And I will enjoy it.
Ben: Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned there a few minutes ago about humor in, in these poems. There is a fantastic juxtaposition between moments of, I won't say extreme violence because none of it is very extreme in [00:21:00] the poems, but there are moments of sharp violence like retinas on your eyelids or something like this.
But one that I, found really interesting is you, you put that humor in almost as an aside. A lot of the time parentheses come in a lot. For example, in the one, I just need to remember the exact name of the poem. The witches demonstrate how to catch a rabbit. You have the, the incredibly throwaway line in the middle of this tension and kind of build up where it says thermals are advisable, where you just kind of say, it's very cold.
Don't, don't forget your jacket if you're going to go out and. Take advantage of men's efforts and things like that not in a negative sense But you know what I mean, it was a very interesting kind of way of cutting through these moments of tension
Jessica: I did enjoy this poem and this really is a kind of a I mean for me This is probably the most straightforward poem in the sequence around what what kind of I suppose kind of essentialist [00:22:00] patriarchal systems bring out in us, you know, it's like the men are out to catch the rabbit, but how do you get the rabbit, you know, I might, I might read it actually, just so people, just so people know.
The witches demonstrate how best to catch a rabbit. Wait until the poachers have it gutted, spitted, sizzling, until they're lulled by the patter of fat on the fire. Then creep out of the trees, careful that the moonlight doesn't catch the bowie blade you've greased and wetted. The night may be cold.
Thermals are advisable. Then grab a poacher by his cock and bring the knife up beneath it. Threaten to hack it root and branch so that he'll bleed out in the darkness with no ear to catch his frantic prayers. Then take your rabbit, run.
Ben: It's just a, it's a phenomenal poem. I love the narrative quality of it.
I love, one of the things that's interesting there is you said, you know, patriarchy makes it essential for certain actions to be [00:23:00] taken and in order for women to participate in patriarchy, I guess, or to get anything useful out of patriarchy, they probably have to be a little bit more Violent or assertive or, you know, they are forced to, as you said, devour themselves in some way.
But my favorite bit of that poem, in light of what you've said, is the last, the last word, run. Because there's still consequences to, these women might be powerful, they might be witches, but patriarchy does not permit this kind of transgression. You still have to flee once you've succeeded in the act.
Like, it's very interesting. ,
Jessica: I mean, I'm interested in subterfuge in, in, in our interaction in society and, you know, subterfuge being the tip of the iceberg, you know, or, or one end of a spectrum that goes through to guerrilla warfare. And, you know, so, like, for me, I'm kind of think I was thinking about, you know, what kind of, you know, what does then happen when you transgress and within that society [00:24:00] within that world.
And, and I mean, I'm painting, I am interested in painting a picture where men are the victims in these poems as well. Well, you know, there are a lot of hopeless men in these poems and, and they are, I think, made hopeless and hapless by the society in which they find themselves as well. And like, I don't feel like, I don't feel like anyone's winning here, you know?
Ben: No, it doesn't feel like that when you read them. It feels like everyone is being forced to.
Jessica: Yeah, like I wouldn't want to be the, the, the witches running away with the rabbit, but I also really wouldn't want to be the poacher, you know, even the fact that he's a poacher. Like I was kind of interested in the layers there of, you know, it's not, it's not the game keeper these people have snuck out on a moonless night, you know, to, then, you know, I kind of, so there's, there's part of me that enjoys.
Enjoys those little subtleties around it. And yes, and yes, that idea that everybody still has to run at the end. There is [00:25:00] no, there is no happy ending. Just a stolen rabbit, just a stolen rabbit. And only for a short amount of time.
Ben: They are a phenomenal collection and hearing you speak about them really kind of.
Sheds a light on them in a brand new way, like there are a lot of layers at work in your Witch Sequence and it's a joy to read, so thank you very much. Thank you so much. Yeah, I really appreciate you coming on. Jessica Trainor, The Witches Sequence from The Quick in 2018, published in 2018 from Daedalus?
Yes, Daedalus Press. And yeah, you can find them and you should buy the book and you should read the poems, they're great.
Jessica: Thanks so much for that Ben. That was a lovely chat.
Ben: Thanks a million.
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